Letting Yourself Dream: An Interview with J2Guides Gap Counselors
Hello Gap Year spoke with Jane and Jason Sarouhan, the J2 behind J2Guides and respected leaders in the field of experiential education for 30 years. They have guided thousands of students through the process of discovering life and learning outside the classroom, and know firsthand how transformative an intentional gap year can be. Developing authentic relationships with their students, programs and colleagues worldwide is central to Jason and Jane’s values and expertise. They are nationally accredited Gap Year Association Consultants and keynote speakers at the USA Gap Year Fairs.
Hello Gap Year (James): So I have strong opinions on all of this but it’s just nice to make it a conversation, you know, so I wanted to ask…More people these days will change careers at some point during their lives, maybe multiple times, than was ever common in the past. Probably there are lots of reasons but I think sometimes people just get to a point where they realize that they have other burning interests or callings that they always knew about. They realize that “maybe I should do something with this. I could!” There’s not as much of a stigma to leave or make a life change anymore. Probably a gap year early on could help a person get in touch with their true interests and callings and as a result maybe be more likely to be more satisfied in their careers as opposed to having these lurking feelings that they’re repressing something important. So I just wanted to start out with that and see what you guys have to say about that whole idea.
J2Guides (Jason): I think it’s really interesting that yes gap time can help us really connect with what we’re specifically interested in, whether that’s professional or educational or personal. But even more than that, I feel like it helps us establish the ways we want to live our life or the values we want to live by, which for young adults is probably the first time they’ve had the chance to explore that on their own outside of their family life. And of course family values are very grounding and many of us go on to continue to amplify those in our own way. But when you’re a young adult out there exploring the world you’re really seeing yourself and seeing what’s important to you, understanding what’s going to be a positive balance for your mental health, for your physical health, what are appropriate boundaries in terms of work. College will take every ounce of attention that you’re willing to offer it but if we do that then we’ll be totally burnt out. And that is true of the working world as well in many cases. So if we establish these healthy habits early on, I think that can also lead to these lives that feel very fulfilled professionally and familially because we already understand who we are and what’s important to us.
J2Guides (Jane): Yeah, there’s no question that it’s helping these kids, us, every time, to realign and define our values. There’s just no question. But I do think also there’s the process and Jason and I talk a lot about this. Like anything else, leaning into change or challenge is a muscle and if we don’t do it then we don’t do it. And if we do it then we go through it and we flex that muscle and we train it and we kind of reap the rewards and we’re more inclined to do it again. And that’s a lot of what we talk to our students about and that’s what we see for ourselves. There’s the fixed point maybe, I guess, of that first moment of perspective and values and all of that stuff. But then it becomes cultivating a practice and I think that’s what students start to really feel in college — understanding that the more they flex that risk-taking muscle, the more often they’re inclined to do it. Good habits beget good habits. Bad habits beget bad habits. Taking gap time, taking ourselves out of our comfort zone begets taking gap time and taking ourselves out of our comfort zone. So there’s that process piece that I think is just as valuable…
Jason: You know it’s interesting. I really like that point and it’s making me think of an example, James, of one of my friends. You couldn’t make this example up. It sounds like I’m making it up but it’s very real. He, right out of college went into sales. And he went into a type of sales that he doesn’t believe in. It’s not his lifestyle but it’s very lucrative. And now, twenty plus years later he and his wife live in a home that they’re very happy with. All three of their kids’ college is paid for already. They’ve saved up enough money to pay for it all …
Jane: His kids are all under fourteen.
Jason: Yeah. He’s living a dream that many of us can’t even imagine or realize financially but they’re very frugal.
Jane: Here we go! Dot dot dot…
Jason: And almost every run that I’m on with him he’ll be like “I really want to get out of this, like it’s soul sucking. I’m not happy. There’s other things that I want to do.” And I’m like “You can do it! You’ve done it man. You’ve done all the things. You aspire towards financial stability. You’re there. There’s no more you have to do. Any other job you take right now it’s all just gravy.” He’s like “I can’t do it.” And I think it really is about that muscle because he hasn’t flexed it for twenty plus years. He did what he thought he was supposed to do. He leaned into his values of helping to support his family. His wife is also employed, gainfully, but he can’t leave. Even if his wife is saying to him “you can go, it’s okay. You don’t need to do this thing anymore,” he can’t.
Jane: He doesn’t know how to.
Jason: He doesn’t know how to.
Jane: He’s an adult probably mid to late forties man. Jason: Surrounded by other self-reflective people who are like, “hey we would support you in this.”
James: Right and still…and that is hard to take the first step. And I hear a lot of that, it’s always “I wish I could do that.” And I’m always hesitant to make any assumptions about anyone’s, for example, financial situation. That’s a big one, right? Because I don’t want to be like “You can!” But I know that a lot of what’s holding people back are things that they have the power to change, that aren’t financial. Well for somebody like that, how do you get them to flex the muscle even just a little bit? To get started without feeling like you’re over proselytizing or something?
Jane: I mean it’s funny. It’s kind of like probably guiding through a process we guide our own students with. And I’m sure you’ve seen enough of us speak and what we post to know what I’m gonna say but…One thing that’s very clear to us is that people start limiting themselves before they’ve even let the dream take any kind of flight. So I’m sure you hear this, we certainly hear this in our travels. “I could never do that. I could never leave my job.” There are all these “can’ts” before people even like “well let’s just put that aside.” So one is just prioritizing the brainstorm. Giving ourselves complete permission. No holding back, to think about…call it your bucket list. Your dream list. Your dream career. Where you want to live. Whatever it is, it’s about doing it without judgment and without limitations. And that is our cornerstone with all families. You’ve got to dream as if it’s all possible. It’s not all gonna happen. There will be circumstances: mental health, finances, who knows what, that limits it, and that’s fine and that is real but if we don’t start with the dream then you’re never gonna get anywhere.
James: And that’s thinking about it. And that’s really interesting because I think once you make a decision to do something like this or even something small, something happens. Even before you start the doing. There’s this mental shift that happens once you allow yourself to sort of think “what if I did something like that?” Like, something starts to change, mentally.
Jane: Yeah, and you’re opening yourselves to take the risk. At first you’re just writing it down. Then maybe you’re talking about it over coffee with someone and then you see an article or then you see a podcast. It does seem to…and Jason and I can say – I’m sure as you can too without a doubt – that the best things we’ve manifested, which is so much including each other and marriage, of course the travels and the van…it always starts with a crazy, crazy, like absurd idea. And if you don’t nurture that idea then you’re not going to do anything. Like van life, we were like “hahaha! wouldn’t that be great!” And then you get to the realities of it and that comes back to where we started a little bit with the flexing of that muscle. And that’s a skill that people will develop once they’ve manifested something. In this case pausing life to have some real world experiences. That the dream can be attainable, and again this is all coming from some place of privilege. I don’t mean to kind of dismiss all of the road blocks in the way but like he’s gotta get out of his own way let himself dream first. He doesn’t even know what he wants.
Jason: And that’s where it comes back to before we began recording, just even something you said, James, which is that it is such a rare gift and opportunity in life to have open ended spaciousness because when we offer ourselves the opportunity to do that things become more clear. What is a priority just becomes more clear. And I think one of the things for my friend and for most adults who have mortgages aad kids and jobs and all the other responsibilities of adult life that they’re tending to is we don’t have a lot of spaciousness and we don’t make a lot of spaciousness. And so to create space all of a sudden we might gain some insights and that is where we might find ourselves more professionally fulfilled if we think about doing something else and might find a way for that to accomplish all the things as well that we need to tend to.
James: It’s interesting to think about it in terms of space because the opposite of that would be sort of feeling boxed in. And without enough space all the things that we do to make ourselves feel more secure, which we think of as good things, would then also be the things that are sort of negatively boxing us in, if you want to put it that way. So it’s sort of a self imposed trap. And of course there’s two sides of the coin and there’s many good things about having that security.
Jason: Yeah, those commitments are wonderful and freedom in their own way, and also having more space can be a level of freedom too. Both things are true.
James: You said the word “grounded” earlier and obviously I’ve heard that word throughout my life but I’ve really only started thinking about it in terms of how that applies to me recently and I had this realization that I’ve never been a grounded person. I’ve done things that have kind of given myself the security that we’re talking about and I feel that I’ve been a more or less reasonable person but not internally feeling grounded. What does that word mean to you and how does it play into how you’re advising people?
Jane: That’s an awesome question, James!
James: It’s a good word, “grounded,” I mean I just have been thinking about a lot lately.
Jane: I mean the first thing that comes to mind for me is…well there’s two things. When I think of myself and – or let’s say in this context a gap year student feeling grounded, it’s really feeling rooted in themselves. That no matter what, or maybe because of the circumstances we put ourselves in that we’re really able to access a calm and confident place within ourselves…that’s what I envision.
Jason: Yeah. Returning to center.
Jane: And that says a lot when you drop a family in Ladakh. Or a student in Paraguay or backpacking across New Zealand. If while in the midst of upending your life you can find groundedness that is really something special. So the next word that came to my mind is, like, “gut.” I talk about “gut checks” a lot with my students. I think there’s a connection there too, when you really just know intuitively and intrinsically that you are where you should be. And to me being grounded means that physically you’re feeling kind of relatively rested and well fed and comfortable. I think when we feel grounded generally we feel physically comfortable and also mentally and emotionally. We feel at peace. We feel like we can process the things we are seeing and doing in a curious and rational way. So those are kind of my first thoughts.
Jason: Yeah, and it brings up this idea to me of a contrast of the word “rooted” which often means staying in one place, but being “grounded” means really being able to hold a level of gravity no matter where you are.
Jane: And what’s getting thrown at you.
Jason: Yeah and that’s an interesting difference because I think that often people confuse those things. Being in one place, being rooted in our job, being rooted in our home town: that gives us stability which is very true. And it might be that you’re grounded AND rooted. But to be grounded and to be able to move where you need to go and to spend time in other places, that’s special. To be able to do that with another person, to be able to do that as a family, that requires some real intentionality. Really knowing ourselves.
James: That’s such a really interesting distinction between the two and it’s interesting to think that you could be so rooted and not at all grounded.
Jason: Hundred percent!
Jane: Yeah, I mean it’s funny and I’m curious for you James. I think there’s sort of a funny tagline among van lifers of “home is where you park it.” You know and that sense of our posse of three is so close and so when we are traveling around the country and world together…what we have together is also incredibly grounding. So when we are communicating well and taking care of each other and taking care of ourselves as a trio we are grounded. And I think that fortifies us to feel like we can make home anywhere we go. And I’m guessing you have deeply tapped into that also as a threesome.
James: Yeah and it goes back to the rooted versus grounded, I think, because to be grounded implies that you can get shaken off that ground sometimes and find that center. And I think that maybe in order to be a grounded person you have to have known what it really means to you to have not been grounded for awhile. And I think that also attaches to that whole “messiness” – beginning a gap year, beginning a life change where you’re gonna say now that you’ve taken the first steps towards the dream. You’re gonna have that feeling of “why am I doing this?” I have a year now that I’ve taken and now I’m doing all these things that are challenging when I could just be taking this WHOLE YEAR to be more relaxed in a place that’s comfortable to me. And that one time in my life that I get this year…or whatever it ends up being, I decided to things that are hard? Like, “what am I doing?” And it really shakes things up for awhile and you have to find your center. And that’s been a lot of what’s been happening for us.
Jason: And in the gap year space and experiential education space we talk a lot about these “zones of comfort” and maybe what someone does need is just to be comfortable for awhile. Maybe their life is already quite a snow globe and is constantly shaking. But for many of us we’re really quite embedded in our level of comforts. To step outside into our stretch spaces where we can still learn and we can grow and the growth tends to be rapid and we’re not always graceful in that space but we are really energized…that’s an amazing place to be. We can’t stay there forever. We do have to come back to the places that are comfortable and integrate and digest. And also that is the essence of gap time, at least for many young adults… is stepping out of the comfort zone and getting into those stretch spaces.
James: Do you see any sort of shift…You’ve been doing this type of work for awhile supporting gap year participants. Do you think that there’s a generational change maybe in terms of how people plan to balance their work with other aspects of their lives? Are people better at this nowadays, from a young age, inherently for any reason?
Jane: Laughs
Jason: Laughs…it’s an interesting question. Are people better at balancing? I think a lot of young adults have ideas that they’ve been exposed to, things that they think they’re passionate about or interested in. I think there are a lot of young adults that are clear on their values around the environment or around social justice. I think people today…more young people are clear about the value proposition of college and that this is time and money that they are going to spend. And that it doesn’t just have to be a given that it’s something worth being thoughtful about. But I also think we’re seeing a generation of young people that have been pushed very hard to excel and to fit into a particular set of molds and standards and not everyone is fitting into that and there’s a moment of emotional fragility as well coming out of the pandemic – several years out where young adults didn’t get to manifest as young adults have in many past generations. And I think we’re seeing the effects of that too. So there’s almost a level of vulnerability even if there’s a higher level of awareness. And so it’s an interesting place. More young adults I think are claiming their own space and need for self care and they know about that more than other generations did, but they are also having higher needs in those areas than many other generations of students we’ve worked with. So it’s kind of a “both and” as I’m seeing. I don’t know if you’d add anything to that.
Jane: I think you’re dead on. I mean I think the destigmatization of mental health and learning differences is a real asset. Young adults are really forthcoming on the calls and really want to prioritize their wellness. I think that’s amazing. And yes, in addition to also seeing this generation right now strongly focused on human rights, the environment. Really topically oriented around politics et cetera, which is so cool, and yet haven’t haven’t maybe left the home for much or left the country. So they’re really interesting intellectually. I think they’re really evolved to some degree. But their self sufficiency…some of their independent living skills feel…
Jason: Different…
Jane: Young. Feel undeveloped. No judgment. Just seems to be. So it’s an interesting collision. But those students are motivated and figuring it out quickly. And as you know we really encourage them to be in community with mentors in the fall, to help them refine some of those skills that maybe they’re arriving with to the gap year or that they certainly would have arrived to college with…help them get a bit more of that “adulting 101.” And that resolve is really addressed significantly in the fall semester.
Jason: One of the areas that we’re seeing an increase just in inquiry around taking gap time is students who have just graduated from college. So now you have these undergraduates in their early twenties who are staring down a challenging job market. Unbelievable rent prices.
Jane: Oh my gosh. They’re all living at home.
Jason: Yeah the capacity to live independently in the ways that many of us were able to afford to do, even with basic jobs when we graduated…it just doesn’t seem as possible anymore. And so that’s a really interesting grouping of…I’ll just say adults… young adults who are out there now trying to figure out what their life looks like and what it means to be manifested in career and life and family life and that’s been really interesting to me.
James: Do you think that says something that more college graduates are approaching you about taking a gap year or even if more high school graduates are? Do you think that that says something about the educational systems that they’re coming from? Is something maybe missing that should be there? Maybe something more experiential? Or does it not say anything at all?
Jane: It’s always hard to know. I mean we’re just two people working with you know, eighty plus clients per year so there’s this whole ascertainment bias. It’s such a small sliver. I’m not sure. I think we also have to continue to look at these college grads and that are currently in college. These are still people who heavy-duty “covided” during high school so I think that’s still what we’re seeing. I think that’s some of it but who knows? Who knows if it’s a long term trend? We have been trending more and more in the last five plus years of more college age and even current college students. We get some college grads but it’s actually students who have done anywhere from a semester to two years. That number’s been steadily growing and potentially before COVID even. It could be a trend we continue to see. The costs of college being so ridiculous that students are wanting pause to get more experiences whether it’s travel or actual internship-towards-career stuff. Lots of students are transferring so that also pops into the gap year for some time to figure out what else they really want to do. So it still all comes back to the same question, which is just that there’s a question. And to me a question that these young adults have that “there’s something else for me out there. I don’t know what it is, I just know that the thing that’s right in front of me doesn’t feel like it.” That’s kind of where it begins, right? They don’t necessarily know what they’re going towards but they’re really clear that where they are is not really quite serving them.
James: Right, and to answer my own question that I think this came from, “Is something missing in the educational system?” And I feel like there are many reasons why people end up changing…shifting careers and so on and so forth. But it seems like a dream at least of mine would be that everybody has the chance to at least explore their potential interests for longer stretches of time earlier on because you need that. You can’t just test the waters through a class or sometimes even through practicum or something. You need more. And that’s what this is.
Jason: I think one of the things that really stood out to me, James, in what you were saying is that we can’t really presume anybody’s finances or life circumstances but also…hopefully everyone who has a fundamental level of economic security is able to look at themselves and say, “What are some of the things that I need for me right now? What does it mean to live a manifested life where I feel like I’m really embodied in who I am and what I believe in.” And we do call it “gap time” more and more within our field because it doesn’t need to be a year. It doesn’t need to be nine months or six months or three months. Any significant period of time that someone can dedicate to this is worthy and worthwhile and it doesn’t have to be a one-time thing. It can be something that we rejuvenate over and over again at different periods in our life, whether it’s alone or with our partner or with our families. And we see a lot of value in that. And for us it’s also a learning experience every single time. So it’s easy for us to use words to talk about these experiences but, you know, for me “van life” was quite challenging. It was really in my stretch zone, whereas Jane and Kaya often looked very grounded. And they were quite happy and I was quite angsty at many different points. And we all are practicing. We’re all practicing these skills. It’s not just words, It’s not just lip service. It is about really putting ourselves out there and it’s a worthwhile exercise. Something that we really believe in.
James: I can really relate to the angst and the words too, and sometimes I feel like words can diminish the reality of something when we hear our whole lives like “seize the day! Do this while you can!” And we say that so much that they become meaningless and then people don’t do those things…
Well thank you so much, both of you, and I hope we have the chance to catch up outside…
If you’ve taken a gap year or work in a related industry and have insights of your own to share, we’d love to hear from you.
